Posts by Dean Fox

21

Religion, a force for good?

by Dean Fox in

is religion a force for good?.

the knee jerk reaction from most people who hold to a religious belief is "yes, of course it is.

" then when you point out that religion is used to motivate people to commit suicide bombings they will likely concede that this isn't always the case.. in one instance though someone said religion is always a force for good because the intentions are always good, even those of a suicide bomber.

Dean Fox

Glenster: "That said, depends on the religion, but yes, religion can motivate people to
be charitable, etc."

Ah, my point is that the religion can only do this if the church is inclinde to encourage its followers to do this in the spirit of the religion upon which the church is based. That you can have the same basic sacred texts and have different churches with different churches with some being more charitable and others more self serving (to the leaders of the church).

It's not the religion that provides the motivator it is the interpretation by the church.

21

Religion, a force for good?

by Dean Fox in

is religion a force for good?.

the knee jerk reaction from most people who hold to a religious belief is "yes, of course it is.

" then when you point out that religion is used to motivate people to commit suicide bombings they will likely concede that this isn't always the case.. in one instance though someone said religion is always a force for good because the intentions are always good, even those of a suicide bomber.

Dean Fox

Missinglink: "Religion is a racket and a snare."

Is it though? Sure it can be used as such, and perhaps often is, but that is my point it isn't the religion but how it is used.

In another forum it was suggested that the world would be a better place without religion, to which someone else replied that they doubted it because something else would take its place - although I wonder if this would not just be a re-emergence of religion. No matter I don't believe that if there was no religion the world would be any better. Conversely I don't believe religion really makes the world a better place either.

Humans are naturally social animals. It's a survival trait. They form groups. They are also naturally wary of groups to which they don't belong. You can see this manifest at all levels. As an individual walking down a quiet street you become alert when someone else approaches, especially at night. You become more alert if you come across a group, being two or more people. You become even more alert when you don't identfify with that group. The group may or may not be a threat but your survival instinct kicks in and you become wary. This is why people get so upset with teenagers hanging around, younger children or adults don't identify with them and become intimidated.

I could go on to explain how these basic instincts translate upwards in scale to countries. Suffice to say churches are more a manifestation of people wanting to congregate, belong and identifiy with a group, that they are based around a religion is merely what makes them churches. What that group does and how it interacts with other groups depends on the dynamics within the group, what the leaders say.

Yes this desire to belong and identify with a group is exploited to varying degrees by various groups especially churches, but not all churches do it and not all do it to the same degree. Like I said religion is a tool, it is not a force. The religion doesn't snare you rather the church may do or may play on a natural desire to belong to recruit members.

I've seen TV adverts in Houston Texas for churches expounding the virtues of the social and networking possibilities within the church. I was told while there that the best way to get a social life and the only way to network was to join a church.

21

Religion, a force for good?

by Dean Fox in

is religion a force for good?.

the knee jerk reaction from most people who hold to a religious belief is "yes, of course it is.

" then when you point out that religion is used to motivate people to commit suicide bombings they will likely concede that this isn't always the case.. in one instance though someone said religion is always a force for good because the intentions are always good, even those of a suicide bomber.

Dean Fox

Thank you kindly for all your considered responses. I hope that regardless of your personal beliefs none of you will ever fall for the simplistic notion that "religion is a force for good" or indeed evil.

It would seem there is a considered concensus that people are the force behind what they do either individually or as a group. This seems to me to be a healthy attitude. An interesting question to ask family, friends and perhaps congregations too, to find out if they consider their responses and perhaps get them to.

The problems that occur with any religion are often borne out of the assumption that the religion is automatically good so whatever it commands must be for the greater good, even if this includes blowing oneself up in order to attain salvation and 72 virgins. Perhaps if people thought a little more about such things they could be fore armed against such abuses by people cloaking themselves in religious trappings.

21

Religion, a force for good?

by Dean Fox in

is religion a force for good?.

the knee jerk reaction from most people who hold to a religious belief is "yes, of course it is.

" then when you point out that religion is used to motivate people to commit suicide bombings they will likely concede that this isn't always the case.. in one instance though someone said religion is always a force for good because the intentions are always good, even those of a suicide bomber.

Dean Fox

Thank you for your response Stephen.

Since the teaching is the responsibility of the leaders of the church then that statement would seem to be in agreement. I certainly agree that if a religion teaches peace and love one should see it in practice in those that follow the teaching. As stated this is not always the case. IMHO I believe that regardless of the religion it can be used as a means to motivate good or bad by the leaders of a given church. Also that the acts of a church can be good or bad regardless of intent.

The idea of intent is an interesting one. I was somewhat taken aback by the idea that because the intentions were good that religion was a force for good. Way too many jumps in the logical flow for my liking.

Anyhow, if I intend to do good and my religion intends good but the results of my actions are bad am is it still a force for good?

Obviously there is a whole side argument in the subjective nature of good and bad, I could create a grey area example but let's create an obvious example.

I am a Christian who having spent months studying the bible on my own has come to believe that the people of New York are evil and responsible for the woes of the world. It is Sodom and Gomorrah and so destined for destruction unless someone acts. Then God tells me he has a mission for me to warn the people of New York by blowing up the Empire States building. I am excited that God has spoken to me and tell all I can, being an extrovert and charismatic person I find this quite easy, no doubt why God has chosen me as his messenger.

Although most people tell me I am a nut case there are those who realise the truth of what I am saying. Together we believe the destruction of the Empire States building will be a sign that will usher in a new beginning of enlightenment and peace. I am spured on by the idolation of my followers. Ultimately my followers attempt to blow up the Empire States beliving they are saving humanity and people die.

Clearly I am deluded, I may or may not be considered evil or capable to stand trial and my followers may be judged equally cupable or more so because they actually did the deed without much input from me. Either way the result of our actions were bad even though we all genuinely believed we were doing the right thing. Ergo good intentions do not automatically mean someone or something is a force for good.

I also posit that the religion itself, in this case Christianity, was not a force for evil. I was the force for evil. It was my delusional interpretation coupled with a charismatic charm that worked on some people to make them followers that resulted in the evil act. I could have just as easily interpreted the same from the works of Nostrodamus, the Koran or any other text or I could even have made up my own divinely imparted scriptures.

This may sound ridiculously extreme but consider the acts perpetrated by suicide bombers, believing they are going to heaven and 72 virgins or the branch Davidians who wanted only to be slaves to David Koresh or those who drank the cool aid and forced others to do the same believing they would rather die than give up their life in Jonestown.

Ergo religion is not in as of itself a force for anything since it clearly has no consistent effect. Religion is a catalyst for many different effects; although the teachings can be the same the results are down to interpretation.

This is understandible since human free will not only allows one to choose a path of righteousness but also to decide what righteousness is and how to pursues it; it also allows you to disagree on these matters too but the existance of disagreement is proof of the free choice one has in such matters. (The law is a different matter, you can disagree with the law but typically you loose.)

How religion is effected is down to how it is taught and how those teachings are percieved. All of which is down to the leaders and individual members of the church. Churches being defined in this instance as organisations built around a religion. I posit that it is churches that are forces. They can be forces for good or evil regardless of intent or the teachings upon which they are based.

This also explains how splinter groups come to exist, when one church's interpretation of the scriptures differs significantly from the others teaching the same scriptures they end up seperating from the original and in some cases end up spawning their own group of churches.

I believe a person must be judged by the results of their actions on Earth, not their beliefs and the same is true of churches or any organisation for that matter. I leave the determination of who is right or wrong with respect to intepretations, scruptures etc to the Divine.

21

Religion, a force for good?

by Dean Fox in

is religion a force for good?.

the knee jerk reaction from most people who hold to a religious belief is "yes, of course it is.

" then when you point out that religion is used to motivate people to commit suicide bombings they will likely concede that this isn't always the case.. in one instance though someone said religion is always a force for good because the intentions are always good, even those of a suicide bomber.

Dean Fox

Is religion a force for good?

The knee jerk reaction from most people who hold to a religious belief is "yes, of course it is." Then when you point out that religion is used to motivate people to commit suicide bombings they will likely concede that this isn't always the case.

In one instance though someone said religion is always a force for good because the intentions are always good, even those of a suicide bomber. My reply was that "the path to hell is paved with good intentions".

However the question got me thinking, is religion actually a force for anything?

There are many definitions for religion around, one is:

"A collection of practices, based on beliefs and teachings that are highly valued or sacred"

My own take is that religion is the beliefs and teachings that are highly valued or sacred. The practices are seperate.

There are many religions and many churches.

I believe that while humans always have free will that it is the church and the way they encourage members to act that determines whether or not the church becomes a force for good or bad and this is regardless of the intentions of the church leaders of the individuals within the church.

Take Islam. The teachings of Islam include concepts of peace, love and many other upstanding moral values and yet certain extremist sects, churches if you will, manage to use it to "radicalise" people and turn them in to suicide bombers. Islam as a religion is neither a force for good nor evil rather it is how the church teaches it that determines the acts of the attendees.

Thoughts?